There is less than three weeks to go before the referendum and the absence of an “official” campaign for either side is beginning to tell in terms of content and quality of debate. Few of the YES arguments go much beyond imagery. Plaid bloggers clearly think the symbolism of a green tick mark is enough to motivate a nation. The NO camp meanwhile continue the apocryphal pitch that more powers will end up in the hands of a faceless political cracach.
The activists and academics are not exactly helping matters either. Whilst one side insists that voting “yes” is somehow a natural expression of our nationality, the other patently views events as an opportunity to begin the process of rolling back a failed devolution experiment altogether. Yet neither scenario is accurate - and what both camps clearly have forgotten is that no-one is more critical of the Welsh than the Welsh themselves.
Accusations of being un-patriotic do not really carry any weight here. After all, what supporter has not booed the team off the pitch at the Millennium Stadium after a shocking performance? As a people, our collectively naive but fixed view, evolved by a combination of community influences and having to work for a living, is that we are entitled to always get something better from our leaders and role-models; sporting, cultural or even political. Surely the question therefore is whether a new empowered Assembly can live up to similar expectations of excellence.
The empirical evidence is that devolution has neither improved Wales’ position from its earlier economic baseline nor given the nation an advantage over its neighbours in terms of health or education. The external perceptions of Wales are also mixed. Whatever positive image has been generated by scenes of Cardiff Bay in Torchwood holds less excitement for funding programme managers who occupy economic directorates in Brussels.
Wales is a small nation and it is natural for its representatives to be closer to its people, demographically speaking. But there is a nagging feeling that WAG’s proximity to the media who dwell near the fifth floor at Crickhowell House, and especially the BBC, is an over-familiarity which has bred swift contempt. Something more is needed to supplement official leaflets that read like microwave instructions and if this referendum does nothing else it has exposed poor research and fingered badly briefed presenters who are unable, so far, to ask the right questions of politicians too accustomed to communicating by sound-bite.
For ourselves, we have no doubt that the concept of self-determination for Wales works at an emotional level but things are less straightforward when the question arises as to just what are the practical differences between a process of law-making that involves 60 politicians in Cardiff Bay instead of 650 legislators at Westminster? Among the specifics we raise is what are the checks and balances involved? Is the competency of the civil service in Wales to the same level of their Whitehall counterparts in drafting legislation? Does the absence of an upper chamber leave opponents of bills with no recourse other than the courts? There are more but these will do for now.
Like many in Wales, our inclination is towards having our own government but we nonetheless have questions. Despite his inestimable qualities, we doubt that Shane Williams is the best one to provide the answers.
Update: MOF ventures onto turf that we dare not tread.
Update: MOF ventures onto turf that we dare not tread.
27 Comments:
excellent post, you sum up mine and many people I know feelings over the referendum well.
Da iawn. A good summary. This referendum is rushed in more ways than one. Give us a vote on having an efficient and hard-working assembly (I can dream!) Can we really give extended powers to a body with no apparent interest (until very recently) in educational standards and an efficient health service?
From my conversations with neighbours, I fear the rise of an Anti-Assembly movement.
I believe that you have nailed the key misgiving among many voters that they are expected to say "Yes" out of patriotism - or in order to follow the example of some rugby player. Hardly the way to determine the political future of a nation.
Jaxx so far as im aware no one on the yes side is citing patriotic fervour as the principle reason for voting yes. I also do not see how the fact that many significant figures in wales feel motivated enough to publicly state their public support for a yes vote diminishes the strength of the case for a yes vote. Tho i think the glaring absence of absolutely anyone of note in welsh life publicly articulating the No case is of significance.
The arguments in favour of a yes on march 3rd are practical and straightforward ones. A yes vote will speed up the process of devolution for wales making it more effective and efficient than it currently is. A yes vote will do away with the current costly, cumbersome and time consuming LCO process that can delay legislation already approved by the welsh assembly for up to three years and in some instances even block it altogether.....and there are numerous well documented examples where this has happened.
Of course devolved government in wales is still in its relative infancy.....being barely a decade old....so it would be unreasonable to have expected devolution to have brought about profound changes in the quality of life of people in wales in that time - tho i think we ought to be proud of some of the measures that have been introduced as a result of devolution and which are unique to wales in the british isles such as free bus travel for the elderly and disabled, free prescriptions and the extra support being given to welsh university students.
Clearly as you point out there are still areas of welsh life in which the advent of devolution has not brought about the improvements we would all have liked to have seen.....but this fact is hardly an argument for denying the welsh assembly lawmaking powers as if that is the case we should be discussing taking lawmaking powers away from the british parliament at westminster given the dire record of successive british government’s in recent times.
You ask about the ‘practical differences’ as regards lawmaking between members of the welsh assembly and members of the british parliament? Well the most important practical difference is that the 60 assembly members are elected entirely by the people of wales - unlike the 650 members of the british parliament. Why should MPs from outside wales decide what laws may be enacted in wales on matters which are wholly devolved to the assembly and which have already been approved by the assembly? which is the current unacceptable arrangement .That is why a key principle of the yes campaign - and one which we are finding has increasing resonance with people - is that laws that only apply to wales should be made in wales.
Also we are not asking for anything that is not already enjoyed by the other nations of the british isles....with both the scottish parliament and the northern irish assembly possessing primary lawmaking powers.
Obviously those who are happy with the current unsatisfactory arrangement can vote no..and a no vote on march the 3rd will mean we limp on with the current system. And while i would not accuse anyone who votes no of being any less concerned with the well being of wales and its people i think it is reasonable to say that the overiding reason such people believe the welsh assembly should not gain primary lawmaking powers is that they hold to the view that the welsh are incapable of or cannot be trusted to make their own laws..
Leigh Richards
Excellent points but I'm not sure they can't be answered.
"Is the competency of the civil service in Wales to the same level of their Whitehall counterparts in drafting legislation?"
Probably not but isn't that like refusing someone a job because of lack of experience when only doing the job gives you the experience.
As far as scrutiny I don't think there has been any real problem in Scotland and I've never been totally convinced on the value of a second chamber. All to often it conservative with a small c and becomes a delaying tactic for these forces.
As far as the BBC is concerned I get the feeling that because the True Wales argument is so poor they are trying to readdress the balance for them hence asling questions that are not actually relevant. Though I accept True Wales believe the BBC is biased towards the Yes Campaign.
However you main points are valid and of course I personally always value a friends constructive criticism than false praise from so called suporters.
Just listened to an item on Good Morning Wales which introduced us to "Referendum Speed Dating". Enough said.
The problem facing Leigh Richards and his YES allies is how they can convince people that "effective & efficient" devolved government will automaticlly translate into improved public sector performance and sustainable economic growth. I don't think that they can. My view is that the current settlement, limp or otherwise, is one best suited to an immature Assembly and the needs of the nation.
Is Leigh seriously stating that the YES campaign is not playing the patriotic card? Similarly, why would a series of Welsh rugby players line on this issues if not “encouraged” by WRU chief Roger Lewis?
It is not enough in my opinion to trot out that we would prefer our own bad government to the good government of a foreign power. We elect our representatives to parliament, and at a better ratio per elector than anywhere else in the UK.
The Jaxxlanders have raised serious questions here. Hopefully their intervention can raise the debate above the political partisan level and childish media prattle so that we address the important constitutional issues that have been avoided so far.
We would be having quite a different national conversation if the specifics you raise in your penultimate paragraph had been addressed as a priority at day 1.
Many thanks for putting some of the concerns about constitutional weaknesses (which I share) out there for comment. I note that you have had few explanatory responses to date although I think suggestions that the NI and Scottish Assembly "manage OK" would be challenged by the respective electorates.
I would like to point out to Leigh that the most costly and inefficient aspect of the Assembly is how it manages its European structural funding programmes. Twenty-one months to sign off on a land acquisition deal already approved by principals, including a local authority and environment agency, is poor performance in anyone’s book. Can he tell me how a streamlined ability to introduce new legislation will go anywhere near sweeping away the Assembly dead wood that is holding back Wales.
Re: Leigh Richards' comments.
These comments raise the spectre of the Lothian question.
Why have Welsh MP's making policy on legislation that primarily effects the citizens of England, by far the population majority of the UK.
Would Richards advocate dismissing our Welsh MP's (with attendant cost savings) and instead replying on MEP's to deal with issues that concern supra-national issues?
Being able to repeat the arguments of both the Yes and No camps is not sufficient. I want to understand the issues involved.
Neither do I understand the actual process of the referendum voting system. What if I spoil my voting slip - how will this be counted?
Where is my 'choice' to vote for 'neither' of these options'?
What we are calling Democracy is boiling down to a 'Boo-Hooray' voting process and 'celebrity'
endorsments just add a flavour of those hardly democratic reality television competitions.
Thank you Jaxx. This is an issue that needs debating, otherwise we risk wandering into the voting booth in the same manner as one would purchase a National lottery ticket.
I am disappointed that this website has decided to focus on the negative issues rather than the opportunities. The Yes campaign is proving that it is possible to bring together varied communities of interests in an effort to gain self-realisation for Wales. Why knock it?
glynbeddau
"Is the competency of the civil service in Wales to the same level of their Whitehall counterparts in drafting legislation?"
I think it was prof B Morgan who said in a speech some months back that bay civil servants were not keen to attend training in Whitehall, so not much chance of improvement there .
The heart over head (patriotic) appeal is illogical for such important matters.
To me the main things are:-
I am completely against a single chamber law making assembly.
What are they expecting to do with this power
How would any law improve the failures to date in the economy and education.
Where does it lead
A no vote is a safe option, there can always be another referendum at a later date when they politicians have shown us they can turn around these failures.
Also The SoS has stated if there is a no win she will consult all parties to improve the system ( one which until recently senior labour politicians said it worked). These improvements would be welcome, however they are highly unlikely to break the link with Westminster, so only those whose prime motivation is the breaking of that link will not accept changes as improvements.
some good points raised in response to my posting....and yes thanks to jaxx for allowing us to discuss these issues and to exchange ideas on the way forward for devolution for wales. Unfortunately pressures of time only allows me to make brief responses to some of the important points raised
in response to anon 12.26 who raises the old 'lothian question' issue let me say i have no difficulty with the proposition that mps from wales would should not be permitted to vote on issues that are considered wholly english..if indeed that is what is being suggested.
in response to anon at 10.40 who asks will lawmaking powers "sweep away the Assembly dead wood that is holding back Wales" as he puts it i would point out that if any such 'sweeping out' needs to be done at the assembly it can be done at the welsh assembly elections in may. So if people in wales are unhappy with the performance of the assembly administration in any areas they can boot the current administration out and elect a different one.....just as we do with the british parliament at westminster every few years!
anon at 7.46 i honestly havent found presenting the case for a yes vote to people locally a 'problem' as you put it nor to my knowledge have other yes campaigners in wales - indeed i've personally found much more enthusiasm among ordinary voters for a yes this time round than i did when campaigning for a yes vote in swansea in 97 - and this response among ordinary voters in wales would seem to be being reflected in every recent opinion poll on the issue which are giving the yes side of the debate a lead of between 20 points and 30 points. You also say you are happy with the current arrangement between westminster and the welsh assembly and i respect your position on that but i would point out to you that that the number of welsh MPs at westminster is going to be cut by a quarter whatever the outcome of the referendum. So if there is a no vote on march 3rd we will have the worst of both worlds.....a smaller welsh presence at westminster and a welsh assembly that is unable to introduce any legislation of its own.
Leigh Richards
swansea
while on the whole question of the degree of information that is going to voters on this mattter...or perhaps the lack of it in some places.....it must not be forgotten that the chief reason for this state of affairs is that the erstwhile No campaign true wales declined to seek lead No campign status with the electoral commission! But for this bizarre decision every houshold in wales would have at least had something going through their doors presenting the yes and no sides of the argument!
While the claim made by true wales at the time that this decision was made to 'save public money' is frankly risible as the fact is that as a result of true wales abdication of responsibility to their own voters the electoral commission has had to issue information booklets on the referendum - out of public money!
So if anyone doesnt feel informed enough to vote on march 3rd true wales unquestionably carries the largest burden of responsibility for this state of affairs.
Leigh Richards
Risible mate.
I want to know the answer to questions that only the politicos can truly answer, not a quango man and a wru exec.
How will they scrutinise new laws.
How will new laws help improve the economy
How will new laws help improve the our kids education
How will new laws reduce waiting lists
How will new laws fill the empty consultant posts
How will new laws reduce the waste on social engineering and nation building
How will new laws improve our infrastructure
How will new laws reduce a WAG civil service that has expanded 3 fold
How will new laws reduce the cost of running the assembly back to the equivalent of £15m in 1997 ( now around £200m?)
How will new laws create jobs for the non political class( except for constitutiional lawyers there will be loads of them)
A good post. I entirely agree with the reservations about scrutiny of legislation.
We may also ask how well the Assembly is taking heed of existing legislation; when campaigners brought a likely breach of statute law to the attention of a minister at Cardiff, the response was thu usual platitudes and inaction. Indeed, the minister in question seemed not to be entirely aware of the legislation in question.
So, at the moment, I'm tending to the 'no' side, although there is an argument that we should establish a full system and then make sure it works properly. Question is, can we?
Photon
On present form and past record I would have to say that's highly doubtful.
The Jaxxlanders aren't misinformed but I politely think they're missing the point.
Celeb endorsements are normal political practice. About the only thing that is 'normal' about this referendum which is being held in strange political conditions. We are debating a system that exists nowhere else in the world. Even the official state media sources have shown confusion as to the actual remit of MPs and their role in that system. There are no official campaigns. The principle of Welsh law-making has already been conceded in 2006 without a referendum. Not all of the 'Yes' campaigners are responsible for that.
The Jaxxlanders seem to be making a few points that they feel haven't been addressed.
"The empirical evidence is that devolution has neither improved Wales’ position from its earlier economic baseline."
The empirical evidence shows average GVA growth of 4.9% each year since devolution began. Not as fast as the UK average which is distorted upwards by a finance capitalism boom. Thus, the ONLY year Wales has gotten poorer since 1999 was 2009 when the effects of the recession were felt- during 2009 our relative GVA to the UK average grew, even though our absolute GVA decreased. Relative GVA is logically affected by the UK's fortunes- and you can't blame devolution for that. Empirically and statistically, Wales HAS improved on its 1999 baseline.
"Does the absence of an upper chamber leave opponents of bills with no recourse other than the courts?"
No more than it does in the other 2 devolved legislatures in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Aside from that, about half of the world's parliaments are single chamber. Why do Scotland and Northern Ireland do ok without second chambers but Wales needs one?
It is odd that so much emphasis is being placed on celeb endorsements when there are obvious rebuttals to all of the points the Jaxxlanders have raised.
Since when do questions necessitate a rebuttal?
For me, the comments by Welsh Ramblings typify the condescension that marks the Yes campaign. They expected widespread acclamation and rejoicing from a grateful nation and seem aghast that some people remain unmoved or unconvinced by their self-evident arguments.
The truth of it is that few of us care how difficult or frustrating it must be for AMs and their coterie to have to wait for the LCO process to wend its way between Cardiff and Westminster but them’s the breaks, as they say, and you can always go a do a real job instead if proves all too much.
"For me, the comments by Welsh Ramblings typify the condescension that marks the Yes campaign. They expected widespread acclamation and rejoicing from a grateful nation and seem aghast that some people remain unmoved or unconvinced by their self-evident arguments."
You're entitled to hold that view but it's obviously not logical to say we expect 'acclamation' or 'rejoicing'. My expectation, as just one person, was a decent debate about part 3 or part 4 and whether the Assembly was ready for this. No rejoicing, no celebrations, just a decent referendum. If that's condescending then whatever.
"The truth of it is that few of us care how difficult or frustrating it must be for AMs and their coterie to have to wait for the LCO process to wend its way between Cardiff and Westminster but them’s the breaks, as they say, and you can always go a do a real job instead if proves all too much."
Don't vote then.
Atorious- when an apparent factual inaccuracy is stated, a rebuttal is needed- that's just my opinion though and i'd never be anything other than respectful in my response.
@Welsh Ramblings
Since you do not specify the "factual inaccuracy" you mention, I assume it relates to the issue of economic growth. My reading was that it was conjecture as to whether anything different (worse) would have happened had devolution not come along. An entirely academic point I accept but hardly an inaccuracy.
I note that you did not challenge their comment about comparative performances in health and education.
Whilst we're delighted that our post generated as many questions as our own, it was not our intent to host a debate. Comments are always welcome but dialogue can get repetitive. In the meantime, we recommend a posting on Synadiau that explains the tortuous existing scrutiny process.
one of the best debates on the subject on any blog
my thanks
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